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聚会真谛

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聚会真谛

帖子 由 timmy 于 周二 十一月 08, 2011 2:36 am

聚会的真谛——我的经历
~timmy 田哞 2011-11
原为一英文电邮论坛的帖子,鱼咖啡翻译2012-1-26

这,就是聚会!
Hi folks, 大家好:

What if Jesus did not teach us to have meeting rituals at all, not for its own sake?
万一说,耶稣并没有教导过我们去聚会或守礼拜,那该怎么办?

When Jesus -- in the four Gospels -- told us how we were all loved by the Father, and that we lived like hell only because we perceived this world as if we were unloved, as if we needed to compete with power and wisdom to prove we deserve love. But Jesus told us, no, the Father loves us from the beginning, that's the truth.
在四福音书里,耶稣告诉我们:我们都是天父所爱的。而我们生活得像地狱一样,是因为我们的世界观说人不值得被爱;以为要透过权力和智慧的竞赛,来证明自己的可爱。但耶稣告诉我们:不是那样的,天父从来都是爱我们的;这,就是真相(真理)!

When Jesus gave us the good news, that deconstructs our world view (named flesh), and He brought us into the whelm of the beloved Son. So those who were facing all kinds of difficulties in life could be blessed, loved, and could live happily, and could face all adversities as Jesus happily did on the cross; because adversities do not prove we are unworthy, that's the truth.
当耶稣给我们福音,那福音粉碎了我们世界的世界观(肉体),把我们带进了爱子的国度。那么,面对着各种生活苦难的人们,就能够蒙福、被爱、过上幸福的生活;而且能够面对一切的苦难,因为耶稣在十字架上也松容面对了。因为,苦难不能证明我们的不配;这,就是真相(真理)!

Now, those who know the truth that the Father loves us, they gather together to love each other -- who are loved by God anyway. When we face difficulties in life, we encourage each others, help each others, and tell each others that God loves us very much. As we know the Day is nearby, we should not cease gathering like this. That's the meeting.
那么,知道了天父爱人的真相后,人们就聚集在一起,彼此相爱了——因为他们每一位都是上帝所爱的。当我们面对苦难时,可以彼此劝勉、彼此帮助、并彼此提醒说:上帝很爱我们。当我们知道耶稣再来的日子临近,我们就更不该停止那样的相聚了。这,就是聚会!

一点背景
Recently, i been asked to leave our home group network. the reason being I read the SHACK and told others that the SHACK was a good book. The final decision maker of the network is a reformed doctrinarianist. Like don miller would have expected, his personality is type 8 in the enneagram (leader).
最近,我们被要求离开我们聚会的家庭小组网路。笼统的说,是因为我们阅读了《棚屋》一书,并告诉其他人《棚屋》是本好书。这个网路的最终决策者是一位改革宗教理主义者。正如Don Miller会推测说,他属于九型人格里的第八型(领袖性格)。

Our own group has been ordered to stop meeting for a few months now. Though our own group has been "arranged" to be dismantled. I had encouraged them to try out other groups in the network. Some of them did, and they found that the other groups have became one-man doctrine teaching services.
我们自己的小组被勒令停止聚会,这已经有几个月了。虽然我们的小组被安排解散了,我们依然劝大家尝试去网路里的其它小组。一些人也尝试了,不过他们发现其它小组已变成了传授教条的一人堂。

That is the background, anyway. My point is, our family have been without "meeting type meeting" for a few months now. And this happened to provide a great experience for me....
这是我们最近的经历。我只想带出一点,我们家已经几个月没有所谓的“聚会”了。而这个经历,恰恰给了我很重要的功课。

更新的人群
I have been learning about the four gospels. I remember NT Wright said that when you get the gospels right first, then you get Paul right. What I found was, when I get the gospels right, the whole bible is back to its original intents, and many lies and twistings in the past got dissolved.
我近期在学习四福音书。记得赖特曾说过:一旦你把福音书读对了,就能把保罗也读对了。而我发现的是,当我读对了福音书,整本圣经的初衷就恢复过来了;于是过去的很多谎言和扭曲都被化解了。

The Pharisees told people that God valued those who act correctly and worship correctly. But Jesus told people that the Father loved them, and the Father did not judge people by human standards (read flesh). Then, those folks who "changed their mind" (read repent) and trusted God's love, are a renewed people, a renewed Israel.
法利赛人教导人说:行得正确的、和敬拜得正确的人,是上帝所看重的。但耶稣告诉人们说:天父爱他们,天父并不以人的标准(肉体)来衡量人。而那些脑子转过来(悔改)信靠上帝大爱的人,就成为更新的人群了——更新的以色列。

A member of this renewed people now saw that God loved for no prerequisite. He/she also realized that his/her neighbors, some of which he/she disliked (read Samaritans), they were also loved by God just as much. So the renewed people gathered to love each others, encouraged each others, and taught each others that God loved people. This was especially crucial as they faced daily difficulties in the Roman world.
这群人现在说:神的爱是不带先决条件的。同时他们也意识到,他们的邻舍们——其中一些是他们过去讨厌的——也同样是上帝所爱的。那么,这群更新的人,就聚集在一起,彼此相爱、彼此鼓励、并彼此教导说:上帝爱世人。当他们面对罗马世界的生活苦难时,这显得尤为重要。

Once this is untwisted, then ritual or non-ritual does not matter, as long as it is back to its original intents. God loves people, and we are here to share that love and help each others to live blessed lives that God intended to give us.
当以上的事情不再被扭曲,“聚会”是否仪式化或非仪式化,也就显得无所谓了;只要恢复它的初衷就可以了。上帝爱世人,我们要分享这份爱,并携手活出这蒙福的人生——这本是上帝的心意。

For the last 20 some years, I had been trying to meet, because I was taught that the "meeting" in itself has some value, i was taught that the meeting was a corporate channel to God that we must try hard to make. We twisted what Jesus said about "2 or 3 meeting together"; Jesus was telling people that when the temple officials and synangoge officials looked down on you, the Messiah still brought God to your mist, even when you are few and humble. Jesus was not saying, if you do not meet, then you would miss out the presence of God.
过去的20年里,我一直努力去“聚会”;因为我被灌输说:“聚会”的本身是很有价值的。我被灌输说:聚会是群体通向上帝的管道,我们必须努力办好聚会。我们又扭曲了耶稣所说的“两三个人的聚会”;耶稣乃是说,即使圣殿和会堂的官员鄙视你们,即使你们又卑微、人又少,弥赛亚仍然要把上帝的同在带到你们中间。耶稣并不是说:你们一旦不聚会,就丧失上帝的同在了。

Now, being forced to "cease meeting". I now experience the real intent of meeting. To meet people to encourage them and help them. I am not going to meet the old way again. Now, as long as the intent is right, i don't care about ritual or non-ritual, it can take any form.
如今,当我们“被停止聚会”,却经历到聚会的真正初衷。与人们相聚,鼓励他们、帮助他们。我再也不会像以前那样聚会了。现在,只要聚会的由衷是对的话,我就不再计较它是否仪式化或非仪式化了,它可以有任何的形态。

《完》


由timmy于周四 一月 26, 2012 2:18 am进行了最后一次编辑,总共编辑了2次
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回复: 聚会真谛

帖子 由 timmy 于 周三 十一月 09, 2011 12:32 pm

That is awesome Tim. A lot of
people never really get to see the "real intent" as you say. I feel good for
you! NOw when you do "meet" it will be so more more precious to you and those
you meet with.LOve,

Chris


由timmy于周四 十一月 10, 2011 11:42 pm进行了最后一次编辑,总共编辑了2次
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回复: 聚会真谛

帖子 由 timmy 于 周三 十一月 09, 2011 12:32 pm

These kinds of things are hard, but by the end of your message I concurred with
Chris K. that God brought a very good thing out of it. The kind of things you
have learned can hardly be learned otherwise.

BTW, I agree The Shack is a good book. It's sad that people can't let books be
good just because they're not perfect.

Regards,
Hal


由timmy于周四 十一月 10, 2011 11:42 pm进行了最后一次编辑,总共编辑了1次
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帖子 由 timmy 于 周三 十一月 09, 2011 12:32 pm

Hi Hal,

Thanks for your consolations!

There are always people who are of the leadership personality, and not quite get
deconstructed by Christ, and want to decide what others people should behave and
think. There are the john mccarthy and john piper in the US, and many many
people of the similar traits.

As i read the four gospels, i get so deconstructed, that these things do not
make me feel hurt anymore. The Jews of Jesus' time were under the yoke to
perform and compete for their value and worth of love. They lived under this
unbearable yoke, so whenever they got rejected they got hurt big time.

To the disciples' surprise, the Messiah's nature or attributes had nothing
against being rejected, mocked, tortured, and killed as a looser. Human
concepts of power, value, fame, love, wisdom, are crafted in the darkness of
sin, thinking humans were alienated from God.

When we repent back to the Messiah's world view, that we do not compete to be
loved, but God always loves us and had never forsaken us. Now it is not easy to
get hurt for being rejected.

tim
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帖子 由 timmy 于 周四 十一月 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Thanks Tim for you willingness to "see" as opposed to doubling your efforts
to make things "work right" as in the "ordered meeting" or ordered "not
meeting." Smile

His blessings to you and your family.

c


由timmy于周四 十一月 10, 2011 11:42 pm进行了最后一次编辑,总共编辑了1次
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帖子 由 timmy 于 周四 十一月 10, 2011 10:56 pm

Tim,

While I had a minute, I wanted to let you know how encouraging this
writing has been to me. Giving up on a form of meeting, even when kind
of forced, is yet another step toward following the voice of the Spirit
as you walk. Thanks for sharing this!

Jim


由timmy于周四 十一月 10, 2011 11:42 pm进行了最后一次编辑,总共编辑了1次
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帖子 由 timmy 于 周四 十一月 10, 2011 10:56 pm

Tim . . . wow . . . "we do not compete to be loved" . . . you took my
breath away with this post. My heart resonates with the truth of all
you've shared, and I am very grateful that you took the time to reflect
on your own suffering in order to richly bless the rest of us.

Thank you, thank you, thank you,
Sandy


由timmy于周四 十一月 10, 2011 11:43 pm进行了最后一次编辑,总共编辑了1次
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帖子 由 timmy 于 周四 十一月 10, 2011 10:58 pm

Even from your beginnings and even your marriage celebration, I was NOT
aware that you were part of larger network... Were you w/ the network from
the beginnings? Your web-page always seemed filled w/ Lord given liberty...

Now this order to stop meeting, coupled w/ the seeming network approval of a
one-man teaching doctrine format - Is it acceptable to just meet w/ your
friends and enjoy dinner together? Meet at a park and sing songs?

A social gathering, rather than the confines of a religious gathering?
In other words, how stiff and far-reaching is the "overlords" forbidding?

Blessings to you Tim, family, and friends... JimP, your brother in kentucky


由timmy于周四 十一月 10, 2011 11:43 pm进行了最后一次编辑,总共编辑了1次
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帖子 由 timmy 于 周四 十一月 10, 2011 11:21 pm

Hi JimP,

We had been with this church network before we married; we've participated for 7 years now.

From the beginning, it was one or two small groups, and was more lateral. Over time, more people joined in, and there are about six small groups now.

A couple from the network had been contacted by some Taiwanese doctrinaire Reformed re-constructionists. They encouraged this couple to take distant courses from a Chinese division of Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. The Chinese faculty is even more doctrinaire.

So after involved with such circles for a few years, the couple decided to pass on their newly learned church system to the whole network. And any voices that do not align with their doctrines are asked to be muted, in any meetings and even in emails.

Similar propaganda activities are going on in many large cities in China. Zealous Reformed Christians coming from Taiwan, Indonesia, and Hong Kong, harshly criticize almost all other types of Christian traditions, including other streams of Reformed like Barth or Torrance, naming others semi-pelagianism, liberal, neo-orthodox, deceived by satan, dangerous, sloppy, etc, etc. And they ask churches to be cleansed from those errors, and to strive to be purely Reformed; they imply that it is the only correct and safe gospel.

tim
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帖子 由 timmy 于 周四 一月 26, 2012 2:18 am

终于被翻成中文了
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