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邀种籽姐,看看帖后1:8-9

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邀种籽姐,看看帖后1:8-9

帖子 由 timmy 于 周四 七月 11, 2013 1:57 pm

1:5 这正是神公义判断的明證,叫你们可算配得神的国;你们就是为这国受苦。 6 神既是公义的,就必将患难报应那加患难给你们的人; 7 也必使你们这受患难的人与我们同得平安。那时,主耶稣同他有能力的天使从天上在火焰中显现, 8 要报应那不认识神和那不听从我主耶稣福音的人。 9 他们要受刑罚,就是永远沉沦,离开主的面和他权能的荣光。 10 这正是主降临、要在他圣徒的身上得荣耀,又在一切信的人身上显为希奇的那日子。(我们对你们作的见證,你们也信了。)

一些人有强烈主见的,会避开自己不喜欢的经文。我这种没啥主见的人,所有经文都要面对面对。

关于帖后1:8-9,我看到有人在网上说:沉沦和离开主面这一说法是翻译者擅自加入的,原文是指在主面前败亡。这是新约里唯一可能这样说的经文。

《和合本》把“恰当的代价dike tino”翻译成刑罚,把“永远败亡aionios olethros”翻译成永远沉沦。随从了中世纪的奥古斯丁创新神学。

不知道种籽姐有否兴趣就其翻译评论一下,或写个博文。


参考这网络选文:
http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=213



 这是东正教英文圣经的翻译:
5This is an obvious sign of the righteous judgment of God, so that you may be accounted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which you too suffer. 6It is righteous for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted with us. This will be when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8bringing vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. 9They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power, 10when he comes to be glorified in his holy ones and to be admired among all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that Day. 

 意思就是,那些拒绝基督观念的人* those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus,将在祂的荣光面前永远败落eternal destruction from the face of the Lord,那是他们应得的后果pay the penalty。

 * 见我的新视频《进入神国,就在今天》


由timmy于周四 七月 11, 2013 2:45 pm进行了最后一次编辑,总共编辑了7次
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回复: 邀种籽姐,看看帖后1:8-9

帖子 由 timmy 于 周四 七月 11, 2013 2:25 pm

一些希腊教父的引文
 
What Happens After Death for Those Who are Neither Saints Nor Incorrigibly Wicked?

Orthodox:
Though many within the Orthodox movement do not agree with the idea that God will call others in the future, as shown here some of their leaders have and some still do.
Clement of Alexandria wrote:
He destroys no one but grants salvation to all...
He indeed saves all. But [He saves] some by converting them through punishments. However, those who follow voluntarily [He saves] with dignity and honor (Clement of Alexandria. Cited in Bercot DW. The Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs. Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody (MA), 1998, p. 591).
Bishop Timothy Ware (who is now called Bishop Kallistos) wrote:
"What exactly is the condition of souls in the period between death and the Resurrection of the Body at the Last Day? Here Orthodox teaching is not entirely clear...The majority would be inclined to say that the faithful departed do not suffer at all. Another school holds that perhaps they suffer, but if so, their suffering is of a purificatory but not an expiratory character. Yet a third group would prefer to leave the whole question entirely open: let us avoid detailed formulation about the life after death" (Ware, p.255).
"There is no terrorism in the Orthodox doctrine of God...several of the Fathers have none the less believed that in the end all will be reconciled to God. It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will; but it is a legitimate hope that all maybe saved. Until the Last Day come, we must not despair of anyone's salvation, but must long and pray for the reconciliation of all without exception" (Ware, p. 262).
Andreas Andreopoulos wrote:
Gregory does not accept the restoration of all and the subsequent forgiveness of all as an inescapable necessity. Nobody will be saved without going through repentance, cleansing and forgiveness, and his view of the apokatastasis is merely the belief that everyone will be able to see truth as it is at the end, and everyone will be given the chance to repent...The restoration of all however, a valid possibility according to the Church, although not a doctrine, has a special place in the hopes of saints who pray for the redemption of their enemies, and it expresses our hope for the charity of God. Possibly the honorable silence expresses this hope, which in spite of the danger of determinism, becomes almost a certainty in this light: If even one human being is able to forgive and pray for the salvation of the entire cosmos, wouldn't God's providence find a way to make it happen? (Andreopoulos A. Eschatology and final restoration (apokatastasis) in Origen, Gregory of Nyssa and Maximos the Confessor. Theandros an Online Journal of Orthodox Christian Theology and Practice, Volume 1, number 3, Spring 2004. http://www.theandros.com/restoration.html viewed 06/08/09)
Archpriest George Florovsky observed:
St. Gregory of Nyssa anticipated a kind of universal conversion of souls in the afterlife, when the Truth of God will be revealed and manifested with compelling evidence...
God respects human freedom, as St. Irenaeus once said...The Last Judgment remains a mystery.
(Florovsky G. The last things and the last events. Originally written no later than 1979. Missionary Leaflet # E95h Holy Protection Russian Orthodox Church. Los Angeles. Editor: Bishop Alexander (Mileant) http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/last_events_florovsky_e.htm#n3 viewed 06/07/09).
(Orthodox escatology remains a mystery to the Orthodox as they tend to admit that they do not understand much of it.)
Origen wrote:
"Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world," whether the world here is to be taken intellectually of the Church, and the taking away of sin is limited to the Church. In that case what are we to make of the saying of the same disciple with regard to the Saviour, as the propitiation for sin? "If any man sin," we read, "we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world?" Paul's dictum appears to me to be to the same effect, when he says, "Who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful" (Origen. Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book VI, Chapter 38).
Thus Origen is teaching [correctly in the view of the Church of God and probably the Orthodox] that Christ died for all and not just those currently in the church.
The Greek Orthodox priest George Mastrantonis has noted that Origen was:
"the first great theologian in Alexandria" (Mastrantonis G. Fasting from Iniquities and Foods. Greek Orthodox Diocese of America. http://www.goarch.org/en/special/lent/articles/lent_fasting_from_iniquities.asp 12/01/05).
Thus, it is possible that Origen's writings may have had some influence upon the position that Timothy Ware took. Specifically, noted historian K.S. Latourette observed this about Origen:
Origen taught that ultimately all the spirits who have fallen away from God will be restored to full harmony with Him. This can come about only with their cooperation, for they have freedom to accept or reject the redemption wrought in Christ. Before full restoration they will suffer punishment, but that punishment is intended to be educative, to purge them from the imperfections brought by their sin. After the end of the present age and its world another age will come, so Origen believed, in which have been born again will continue to grow and the unrepentant will be given further opportunity for repentance (Latourette K.S. A History of Christianity, Volume 1, Beginnings to 1500. Harper Collins, San Francisco, 1975, p.151).
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帖子 由 种籽 于 周四 七月 11, 2013 3:12 pm

“沉沦”不是加的,应该搞清楚永远沉沦是什么意思。这句话的确不支持普救论。沉沦也做“败坏”,有时候和灭亡相提并论,是同义词。

“离开主的面”说过头了,我同意,整句话说的是在主面前永远沉沦/败坏/而已。可能翻译者是想要解释永远沉沦。
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帖子 由 种籽 于 周四 七月 11, 2013 3:17 pm

有没有教父相信人人都by default 要下地狱啊?Smile 
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帖子 由 timmy 于 周四 七月 11, 2013 3:31 pm

种籽 写道::有没有教父相信人人都by default 要下地狱啊?Smile 

那会是拉丁教父的想法吧,奥古斯丁有的。不知道ambrose有没有

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustinian_theodicy

Augustine of Hippo was the first to develop the theodicy. He rejected the idea that evil exists in itself, instead regarding it as a corruption of goodness, caused by humanity's abuse of free will. Augustine believed in the existence of a physical Hell as a punishment for sin, but argued that those who choose to accept the salvation ofJesus Christ will go to Heaven.

《上帝之城》对地狱有专门讲论。

在东正教和一些天主教学者眼里,这被视为奥古斯丁的个人发明。

St. Augustine, City of God

Eternal life will be infinite, while eternal punishment will have an end ” Hence, because the eternal life of the saints will be endless, the eternal punishment also, for those condemned to it, will assuredly have no end.


由timmy于周四 七月 11, 2013 3:55 pm进行了最后一次编辑,总共编辑了2次
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帖子 由 种籽 于 周四 七月 11, 2013 3:46 pm

拉丁教父的思维是注重个人,东方教父的思维不注重个人,文化差异。结果华人是从西方宣教士得到的个人得救的福音,稍感蹩脚,还是全盘连文化一起接纳了。
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帖子 由 timmy 于 周四 七月 11, 2013 3:56 pm

种籽 写道::拉丁教父的思维是注重个人,东方教父的思维不注重个人,文化差异。结果华人是从西方宣教士得到的个人得救的福音,稍感蹩脚,还是全盘连文化一起接纳了。

 脑子走不出羁禁
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帖子 由 种籽 于 周五 七月 12, 2013 2:40 am

如果东正教派人传福音,大概就不是传个人的坏消息沉沦和好消息得救,他们大概会说,您被上帝接纳为爱子了,快回家吧。西方的信徒会说,可是这人悔改最重要!因为他们不把回家当作悔改。他们忘记,圣经中很多传福音的例子都没有把悔罪当作先决条件:http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_647daab60101c97b.html
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帖子 由 timmy 于 周五 七月 12, 2013 9:56 am

种籽 写道::如果东正教派人传福音,大概就不是传个人的坏消息沉沦和好消息得救,他们大概会说,您被上帝接纳为爱子了,快回家吧。西方的信徒会说,可是这人悔改最重要!因为他们不把回家当作悔改。他们忘记,圣经中很多传福音的例子都没有把悔罪当作先决条件:http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_647daab60101c97b.html

唉,罗马人读希腊文,就变得很条文生硬
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帖子 由 种籽 于 周六 七月 13, 2013 12:00 am

前次我仔细去看耶稣讲的浪子故事,那个小子根本没有悔改!他给别人干活待遇太差,就想起父亲雇用的那些工人,待遇多好。他不是要回去当父亲的奴隶,有口饭吃就行,乃是要做能够自己赚钱养家的手艺人,日后有一天在乡亲面前重新抬头。他的计划不是回家,而是住在附近,靠着挥霍父亲的恩典,自己努力改变身份地位。那“得罪了天又得罪了你”的说辞可以理解为纯粹的外交辞令。可是父亲全然接纳,根本没有审查他是真心还是假意。这种没有原则的父亲,就是耶稣所启示出来的天父样式。令人震撼。
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帖子 由 timmy 于 周六 七月 13, 2013 12:49 am

种籽 写道::前次我仔细去看耶稣讲的浪子故事,那个小子根本没有悔改!他给别人干活待遇太差,就想起父亲雇用的那些工人,待遇多好。他不是要回去当父亲的奴隶,有口饭吃就行,乃是要做能够自己赚钱养家的手艺人,日后有一天在乡亲面前重新抬头。他的计划不是回家,而是住在附近,靠着挥霍父亲的恩典,自己努力改变身份地位。那“得罪了天又得罪了你”的说辞可以理解为纯粹的外交辞令。可是父亲全然接纳,根本没有审查他是真心还是假意。这种没有原则的父亲,就是耶稣所启示出来的天父样式。令人震撼。

是呀!慈父的爱不是儿子决定的,是父亲一人决定的。至于儿子是否享受得到,就看儿子回不回家,跟儿子的宗教内在修为也没多少关系。

大陆有首歌的歌词说:常回家看看,回家看看。哈哈
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帖子 由 不是吧 (或退隐) 于 周六 七月 13, 2013 12:18 pm

种籽 写道::前次我仔细去看耶稣讲的浪子故事,那个小子根本没有悔改!他给别人干活待遇太差,就想起父亲雇用的那些工人,待遇多好。他不是要回去当父亲的奴隶,有口饭吃就行,乃是要做能够自己赚钱养家的手艺人,日后有一天在乡亲面前重新抬头。他的计划不是回家,而是住在附近,靠着挥霍父亲的恩典,自己努力改变身份地位。那“得罪了天又得罪了你”的说辞可以理解为纯粹的外交辞令。可是父亲全然接纳,根本没有审查他是真心还是假意。这种没有原则的父亲,就是耶稣所启示出来的天父样式。令人震撼。
种子姐这是想吓死华人新教徒呀!
我理解种子姐的意思:这种“没有原则”,其实就是天父的原则。
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帖子 由 种籽 于 周六 七月 13, 2013 1:58 pm

对啦,“没有原则”应该加上引号。
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帖子 由 timmy 于 周六 七月 13, 2013 2:01 pm

不是吧说话的“没有原则”,也是一种高深的艺术!
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帖子 由 种籽 于 周二 七月 16, 2013 8:00 am

我又仔细看了看拉撒路和财主的故事。主旨是关于如何支配钱财的教导,不是关于死后审判:

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_647daab60101jlmt.html
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帖子 由 timmy 于 周二 七月 16, 2013 11:06 am

种籽 写道::我又仔细看了看拉撒路和财主的故事。主旨是关于如何支配钱财的教导,不是关于死后审判:

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_647daab60101jlmt.html

是的,我们经常把圣经里的寓言故事过渡的解读了。
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